http://news.yahoo.com/israeli-algorithm-sheds-light-bible-163128454.html
An Israeli algorithm sheds light on the Bible
By MATTI FRIEDMAN - Associated Press | AP – Wed, Jun 29, 2011
JERUSALEM (AP) — Software developed by an Israeli team is giving intriguing new hints about what researchers believe to be the multiple hands that wrote the Bible.
The new software analyzes style and word choices to distinguish parts of a single text written by different authors, and when applied to the Bible its algorithm teased out distinct writerly voices in the holy book.
The program, part of a sub-field of artificial intelligence studies known as authorship attribution, has a range of potential applications — from helping law enforcement to developing new computer programs for writers. But the Bible provided a tempting test case for the algorithm's creators.
For millions of Jews and Christians, it's a tenet of their faith that God is the author of the core text of the Hebrew Bible — the Torah, also known as the Pentateuch or the Five Books of Moses. But since the advent of modern biblical scholarship, academic researchers have believed the text was written by a number of different authors whose work could be identified by seemingly different ideological agendas and linguistic styles and the different names they used for God.
Today, scholars generally split the text into two main strands. One is believed to have been written by a figure or group known as the "priestly" author, because of apparent connections to the temple priests in Jerusalem. The rest is "non-priestly." Scholars have meticulously gone over the text to ascertain which parts belong to which strand.
When the new software was run on the Pentateuch, it found the same division, separating the "priestly" and "non-priestly." It matched up with the traditional academic division at a rate of 90 percent — effectively recreating years of work by multiple scholars in minutes, said Moshe Koppel of Bar Ilan University near Tel Aviv, the computer science professor who headed the research team.
"We have thus been able to largely recapitulate several centuries of painstaking manual labor with our automated method," the Israeli team announced in a paper presented last week in Portland, Oregon, at the annual conference of the Association for Computational Linguistics. The team includes a computer science doctoral student, Navot Akiva, and a father-son duo: Nachum Dershowitz, a Tel Aviv University computer scientist, and his son, Idan Dershowitz, a Bible scholar at Hebrew University in Jerusalem.
The places in which the program disagreed with accepted scholarship might prove interesting leads for scholars. The first chapter of Genesis, for example, is usually thought to have been written by the "priestly" author, but the software indicated it was not.
Similarly, the book of Isaiah is largely thought to have been written by two distinct authors, with the second author taking over after Chapter 39. The software's results agreed that the book might have two authors, but suggested the second author's section actually began six chapters earlier, in Chapter 33.
The differences "have the potential to generate fruitful discussion among scholars," said Michael Segal of Hebrew University's Bible Department, who was not involved in the project.
Over the past decade, computer programs have increasingly been assisting Bible scholars in searching and comparing texts, but the novelty of the new software seems to be in its ability to take criteria developed by scholars and apply them through a technological tool more powerful in many respects than the human mind, Segal said.
Before applying the software to the Pentateuch and other books of the Bible, the researchers first needed a more objective test to prove the algorithm could correctly distinguish one author from another.
So they randomly jumbled the Hebrew Bible's books of Ezekiel and Jeremiah into one text and ran the software. It sorted the mixed-up text into its component parts "almost perfectly," the researchers announced.
The program recognizes repeated word selections, like uses of the Hebrew equivalents of "if," ''and" and "but," and notices synonyms: In some places, for example, the Bible gives the word for "staff" as "makel," while in others it uses "mateh" for the same object. The program then separates the text into strands it believes to be the work of different people.
Other researchers have looked at linguistic fingerprints in less sacred texts as a way of identifying unknown writers. In the 1990s, the Vassar English professor Donald Foster famously identified the journalist Joe Klein as the anonymous author of the book "Primary Colors" by looking at minor details like punctuation.
In 2003, Koppel was part of a research team that developed software that could successfully tell, four times out of five, if the author of a text was male or female. Women, the researchers found, are far more likely to use personal pronouns like "she" and "he," while men prefer determiners like "that" and "this" — women, in other words, talk about people, while men prefer to talk about things. That success sparked debate about how gender shapes the way we think and communicate.
Research of this kind has potential applications for law enforcement, allowing authorities to catch imposters or to match anonymous texts with possible authors by identifying linguistic tics. Because the analysis can also help identify gender and age, it might also allow advertisers to better target customers.
The new software might be used to investigate Shakespeare's plays and settle lingering questions of authorship or co-authorship, mused Graeme Hirst, a professor of computational linguistics at the University of Toronto. Or it could be applied to modern texts: "It would be interesting to see if in more cases we can tease apart who wrote what," Hirst said.
The algorithm might also lead to the creation of a style checker for documents prepared by multiple authors or committees, helping iron out awkward style variations and creating a uniform text, Hirst suggested.
What the algorithm won't answer, say the researchers who created it, is the question of whether the Bible is human or divine. Three of the four scholars, including Koppel, are religious Jews who subscribe in some form to the belief that the Torah was dictated to Moses in its entirety by a single author: God.
For academic scholars, the existence of different stylistic threads in the Bible indicates human authorship.
But the research team says in their paper they aren't addressing "how or why such distinct threads exist."
"Those for whom it is a matter of faith that the Pentateuch is not a composition of multiple writers can view the distinction investigated here as that of multiple styles," they said.
In other words, there's no reason why God could not write a book in different voices.
"No amount of research is going to resolve that issue," said Koppel.
Thursday, June 30, 2011
Wednesday, June 22, 2011
roundworm currently unexplained
The roundworm has only 302 neurons in its brain, yet complete understanding of its behavior is not available at present - see here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/21/science/21brain.html?
Why is the wiring diagram produced by Dr. White so hard to interpret? She pulls down from her shelves a dog-eared copy of the journal in which the wiring was first described. The diagram shows the electrical connections that each of the 302 neurons makes to others in the system. These are the same kind of connections as those made by human neurons. But worms have another kind of connection.
Besides the synapses that mediate electrical signals, there are also so-called gap junctions that allow direct chemical communication between neurons. The wiring diagram for the gap junctions is quite different from that of the synapses.
Not only does the worm’s connectome, as Dr. Bargmann calls it, have two separate wiring diagrams superimposed on each other, but there is a third system that keeps rewiring the wiring diagrams. This is based on neuropeptides, hormonelike chemicals that are released by neurons to affect other neurons.
The neuropeptides probably help control the brain’s general status, or mood. A strong hint of how they work comes from the npr-1 gene, which makes a protein that responds to neuropeptides. When the npr-1 gene is active, its neuron becomes unavailable to its local circuit.
That may be a reason why the worm’s behavior cannot be computed from the wiring diagram: the pattern of connections is changing all the time under the influence of the worm’s 250 neuropeptides.
The connectome shows the electrical connections, and hence the quickest paths for information to move through the worm’s brain. “But if only a subset of neurons are available at any time, the connectome is ambiguous,” she says.
The human brain, too, has neuropeptides that set mood and modify behavior. Neuropeptides are probably at work when the pain pathways are cut off in acute crises, allowing people to function despite serious wounds.
The human brain, though vastly more complex than the worm’s, uses many of the same components, from neuropeptides to transmitters. So everything that can be learned about the worm’s nervous system is likely to help with the human system.
Though the worm’s nervous system is routinely described as simple, that is true only in comparison with the human brain. The worm has 22,000 genes, almost as many as a person, and its brain is a highly complex piece of biological machinery. The work of Dr. Bargmann’s and other labs has deconstructed many of its operational mechanisms.
What would be required to say that the worm’s nervous system was fully understood? “You would want to understand a behavior all the way through, and then how the behavior can change,” Dr. Bargmann says.
“That goal is not unattainable,” she adds.
[D.G. Of course, one must be optimistic - how else will one justify new grant applications? But this should give pause to those who claim that the workings of the human brain are well understood. For example, here is a summary of all the brain's major functions: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/body/interactives/organs/brainmap/]
--
Why is the wiring diagram produced by Dr. White so hard to interpret? She pulls down from her shelves a dog-eared copy of the journal in which the wiring was first described. The diagram shows the electrical connections that each of the 302 neurons makes to others in the system. These are the same kind of connections as those made by human neurons. But worms have another kind of connection.
Besides the synapses that mediate electrical signals, there are also so-called gap junctions that allow direct chemical communication between neurons. The wiring diagram for the gap junctions is quite different from that of the synapses.
Not only does the worm’s connectome, as Dr. Bargmann calls it, have two separate wiring diagrams superimposed on each other, but there is a third system that keeps rewiring the wiring diagrams. This is based on neuropeptides, hormonelike chemicals that are released by neurons to affect other neurons.
The neuropeptides probably help control the brain’s general status, or mood. A strong hint of how they work comes from the npr-1 gene, which makes a protein that responds to neuropeptides. When the npr-1 gene is active, its neuron becomes unavailable to its local circuit.
That may be a reason why the worm’s behavior cannot be computed from the wiring diagram: the pattern of connections is changing all the time under the influence of the worm’s 250 neuropeptides.
The connectome shows the electrical connections, and hence the quickest paths for information to move through the worm’s brain. “But if only a subset of neurons are available at any time, the connectome is ambiguous,” she says.
The human brain, too, has neuropeptides that set mood and modify behavior. Neuropeptides are probably at work when the pain pathways are cut off in acute crises, allowing people to function despite serious wounds.
The human brain, though vastly more complex than the worm’s, uses many of the same components, from neuropeptides to transmitters. So everything that can be learned about the worm’s nervous system is likely to help with the human system.
Though the worm’s nervous system is routinely described as simple, that is true only in comparison with the human brain. The worm has 22,000 genes, almost as many as a person, and its brain is a highly complex piece of biological machinery. The work of Dr. Bargmann’s and other labs has deconstructed many of its operational mechanisms.
What would be required to say that the worm’s nervous system was fully understood? “You would want to understand a behavior all the way through, and then how the behavior can change,” Dr. Bargmann says.
“That goal is not unattainable,” she adds.
[D.G. Of course, one must be optimistic - how else will one justify new grant applications? But this should give pause to those who claim that the workings of the human brain are well understood. For example, here is a summary of all the brain's major functions: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/body/interactives/organs/brainmap/]
--
Sunday, May 29, 2011
the new atheism
Worth looking at if you are still interested in this material:
Logical Errors in in New Atheism (Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett and Harris)
From Bahai Philosophy Studies (of all places)
New Atheism, The: A Bahá'í Perspective,
Logical Errors in in New Atheism (Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett and Harris)
From Bahai Philosophy Studies (of all places)
New Atheism, The: A Bahá'í Perspective,
Wednesday, May 11, 2011
3000 year old Hebrew inscription
Published on Science 2.0 (http://www.science20.com)
Ostracon Proto-Canaanite Text Is 1000 Years Older Than The Dead Sea Scrolls
By News Account
Created Nov 6 2008 - 1:00am
The earliest known Hebrew text written in a Proto-Canaanite script has been discovered by Hebrew University archaeologists in an ancient city in the area where David slew Goliath – the earliest Judean city found to date. The 3,000 year old finding is thought to be the most significant archaeological discovery in Israel since the Dead Sea Scrolls – predating them by 1,000 years.
The ostracon (pottery shard inscribed with writing in ink) comprises five lines of text divided by black lines and measures 15 x 15 cm. and was found at excavations of a 10th century B.C.E. fortress - the oldest known Judaic city.
The ostracon was found lying on the floor inside a building near the city gate of the site, known as the Elah Fortress at Khirbet Qeiyafa.
The ostracon comprises five lines of text divided by black lines, and was found at excavations of a 10th century B.C.E. fortress - the oldest known Judaic city. Photo: Gabi Laron
Excavations are being led by Prof. Yosef Garfinkel, the Yigal Yadin Professor of Archaeology at the Institute of Archaeology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and his partner Saar Ganur, in partnership with Foundation Stone, a non-profit educational organization which works to provide a contemporary voice to ancient stories. The excavations and analysis are also being supported by J.B. Silver and the Brennan Foundation.
Why is this inscription special?
Carbon-14 dating of organic material found with the ostracon, administered by Oxford University, along with pottery analysis dates this inscription to the time of King David ca. 3,000 years ago – predating the Dead Sea Scrolls by approximately a millennium, and placing it earlier than the famed Gezer Calendar.
It is hoped the text inscribed on the 'Qeiyafa Ostracon' will serve as an anchor in our understanding of the development of all alphabetic scripts.
While the inscription has yet to be deciphered, initial interpretation indicates the text was part of a letter and contains the roots of the words "judge", "slave" and "king". This may indicate that this is a legal text that could provide insights into Hebrew law, society and beliefs. Archaeologists say that it was clearly written as a deliberate message by a trained scribe.
What is the Elah Fortress?
Dating to the 10th century B.C.E., the Elah Fortress is the earliest known fortified city of the biblical period in Israel. Excavations began on the site in June 2008.
Comprising 23 dunams [2.3 hectares], the Elah Fortress (Khirbet Qeiyafa) was situated on the border between Philistia and the Kingdom of Judea (5 kilometers south of current day Bet Shemesh.). It is thought to have been a major strategic checkpoint guarding the main road from Philistia and the Coastal Plain to Jerusalem, which was just a day's walk away.
Nearly 600 square meters of the Elah Fortress have so far been unearthed. Surrounded by a 700 meter-long massive city wall, the fortress was built with megalithic stones - some weighing four to five tons. The city wall is four meters wide, constructed with casemates. Archaeologists estimate that 200,000 tons of rock were hewn, moved and used in the construction of these fortifications.
A four-chambered gate, 10.5 meters across, is the dominant feature of the massive fortifications. Further excavations will reveal whether it is really six chambers and whether there are other gates. The larger rocks in the gate structure weigh five to eight tons.
To date, only four percent of the site has been excavated, promising many more incredible discoveries in the remaining 96 percent in the future.
The early Hebrew ostracon, Judean pottery similar to that found at other Israelite settlements, and the absence of pig bones among the animal bones found at the site all point to this fortress being a city of the Kingdom of Judea.
Elah Fortress proof of United Monarchy?
The Elah Fortress archaeological site could prove the existence of the United Monarchy, which scholars often question ever existed. The artifacts found at the site thus far all indicate that there was most likely a strong king and central government in Jerusalem - earlier than any discovered until now - rather than a number of small villages scattered throughout Judea. This would verify descriptions and narratives found in Samuel and Chronicles.
Over 100 jar handles bear distinct impressions which may indicate a link to royal vessels. Such a large quantity of this feature found in one small locale is unprecedented.
David&Goliath
The site of Khirbet Qeiyafa is situated among four biblical cities in Judea's inheritance chronicled in the Book of Joshua 35:15 - Azeka, Socho, Yarmut and Adulam. The biblical narrative located the battle between David and Goliath between Socho and Azeka. According to legend, David selected five stones from the nearby Elah Creek with which to slay Goliath.
According to Prof. Garfinkel, this is the only site in Israel where one can investigate the historical King David. "The chronology and geography of Khirbet Qeiyafa create a unique meeting point between the mythology, history, historiography and archaeology of Kind David."
The ostracon (pottery shard inscribed with writing in ink) comprises five lines of text divided by black lines and measures 15 x 15 cm. and was found at excavations of a 10th century B.C.E. fortress - the oldest known Judaic city.
The ostracon was found lying on the floor inside a building near the city gate of the site, known as the Elah Fortress at Khirbet Qeiyafa.
The ostracon comprises five lines of text divided by black lines, and was found at excavations of a 10th century B.C.E. fortress - the oldest known Judaic city. Photo: Gabi Laron
Excavations are being led by Prof. Yosef Garfinkel, the Yigal Yadin Professor of Archaeology at the Institute of Archaeology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and his partner Saar Ganur, in partnership with Foundation Stone, a non-profit educational organization which works to provide a contemporary voice to ancient stories. The excavations and analysis are also being supported by J.B. Silver and the Brennan Foundation.
Why is this inscription special?
Carbon-14 dating of organic material found with the ostracon, administered by Oxford University, along with pottery analysis dates this inscription to the time of King David ca. 3,000 years ago – predating the Dead Sea Scrolls by approximately a millennium, and placing it earlier than the famed Gezer Calendar.
It is hoped the text inscribed on the 'Qeiyafa Ostracon' will serve as an anchor in our understanding of the development of all alphabetic scripts.
While the inscription has yet to be deciphered, initial interpretation indicates the text was part of a letter and contains the roots of the words "judge", "slave" and "king". This may indicate that this is a legal text that could provide insights into Hebrew law, society and beliefs. Archaeologists say that it was clearly written as a deliberate message by a trained scribe.
What is the Elah Fortress?
Dating to the 10th century B.C.E., the Elah Fortress is the earliest known fortified city of the biblical period in Israel. Excavations began on the site in June 2008.
Comprising 23 dunams [2.3 hectares], the Elah Fortress (Khirbet Qeiyafa) was situated on the border between Philistia and the Kingdom of Judea (5 kilometers south of current day Bet Shemesh.). It is thought to have been a major strategic checkpoint guarding the main road from Philistia and the Coastal Plain to Jerusalem, which was just a day's walk away.
Nearly 600 square meters of the Elah Fortress have so far been unearthed. Surrounded by a 700 meter-long massive city wall, the fortress was built with megalithic stones - some weighing four to five tons. The city wall is four meters wide, constructed with casemates. Archaeologists estimate that 200,000 tons of rock were hewn, moved and used in the construction of these fortifications.
A four-chambered gate, 10.5 meters across, is the dominant feature of the massive fortifications. Further excavations will reveal whether it is really six chambers and whether there are other gates. The larger rocks in the gate structure weigh five to eight tons.
To date, only four percent of the site has been excavated, promising many more incredible discoveries in the remaining 96 percent in the future.
The early Hebrew ostracon, Judean pottery similar to that found at other Israelite settlements, and the absence of pig bones among the animal bones found at the site all point to this fortress being a city of the Kingdom of Judea.
Elah Fortress proof of United Monarchy?
The Elah Fortress archaeological site could prove the existence of the United Monarchy, which scholars often question ever existed. The artifacts found at the site thus far all indicate that there was most likely a strong king and central government in Jerusalem - earlier than any discovered until now - rather than a number of small villages scattered throughout Judea. This would verify descriptions and narratives found in Samuel and Chronicles.
Over 100 jar handles bear distinct impressions which may indicate a link to royal vessels. Such a large quantity of this feature found in one small locale is unprecedented.
David&Goliath
The site of Khirbet Qeiyafa is situated among four biblical cities in Judea's inheritance chronicled in the Book of Joshua 35:15 - Azeka, Socho, Yarmut and Adulam. The biblical narrative located the battle between David and Goliath between Socho and Azeka. According to legend, David selected five stones from the nearby Elah Creek with which to slay Goliath.
According to Prof. Garfinkel, this is the only site in Israel where one can investigate the historical King David. "The chronology and geography of Khirbet Qeiyafa create a unique meeting point between the mythology, history, historiography and archaeology of Kind David."
Thursday, April 7, 2011
Wednesday, March 30, 2011
debunking Korean Talmud story
http://mostlykosher.blogspot.com/2011/03/debunking-korean-talmud-story.html
Debunking the Korean Talmud Story
Some days ago, Ynet ran a story of an interview with the Korean ambassador to Israel, who claimed the Talmud was required reading for every Korean student:
“We were curious how come the Jews are so successful academically and have a much higher percentage of Nobel Prize winners in all fields… what is their secret?… one of your secrets is studying Talmud,” continued ambassador Young-Sam-Ma. There might be now more (translated) Talmud volumes in South Korean homes than in Israel!
“We tried to understand why the Jews are such geniuses and we concluded that (it is because) they study Talmud,” explained South Korea’s ambassador to Israel.
This story was picked up by just about every proud Jewish website. However if anyone thought a little, the story makes no sense! even using an explained talmud (i.e Artscroll) the Talmud is hard reading for adults - never mind schoolchildren. Furthermore large parts are so dependant on some other Jewish Knoweldge, that you really couldn't understand anything.
A quick google search for "talumd" and "Korea", brought me to a catholic forum. In 2005 a poster named "Brogan" wrote the following posts:
I've taken a job in Korea. This is a decission that I now regret becuase I stupidly misred sspx's website and thought that they offered mass every sunday. Its actually only once a month.
Anyways, I just found out that all the little kids have to read the Talmud in elementary school. I couldnt believe this. There arnt even any jews in Korea. I think I'm going to look into whether or not foods here have koser lables on them. This is just rediculis. I truely doubt that even .00001% of the population here is Jewish.
He followed it up with a few other posts:
So I asked some of my students today and am now even more weirded out than before. One class told me that they all had to read it in elementary school. When I asked them what class they all acted really confused. They didnt understand what I was asking them. Then I asked the next class about it. They told me that it was not part of thier school curiculem yet every single one of them had read it as a child. When I asked them if they had read the Koran both classes burst into laughter. "Of course not thats the Muslim book".
They didnt get it when I was trying to explain to them that the Talmud was a Jewish book. They just kept saying "in Korea it is just a good book." One student told me that he loves the Talmud becuase it is the "light of Knowledge". Mind you, these kids barely speak english yet he said that exact phrase. I dont know what to make of it.
So what I'vwe learned so far is that All of them read it as children and love it yet dont know that it is Jewish. All of them read it during elementary school yet I dont think it was required in any class. But I tell you what they way they acted was more fanatical then american kids about Harry Potter. I mean they LOVED the Talmud.
Something else I found weird was after the first class told me that they had all read it I started talking to them about the Jews. All they knew about the Jews was that they were killed by Hitler. I asked them "who killed more people, Hitler or Stalin?" They all shouted "Hitler Hitler!" The strangest thing about this is that they knew that millions of Korean settelers had been killed by Stalin yet had no idea about the other 60 million or so that he killed.
How strange. The second class didnt have any answer asto why they read it. "its a really goooood book". ""before I read the talmud I used to think that he was ugly" (pointing to another student...everyone laughs). Now I know the truth. "The Talmud is the light of knowledge".
I'm going to find out still more about this. I want an answer asto whether or not its required, becuase if its not why have EVERY SINGLE ONE of them read it in elementary school?
Btw I told them that it was anti-Christian and said to kill Christians. I think this is true but umm...does it specifically say to kill Christians?
Let us leave aside the strong anti-semetic vibes (that are going to get worse as you read the original thread), Brogan continued his search into the Korean Talmud love affair:
Quote from: francis
I googled korea + talmud and found this
...
UPDATE: OK just taught my final class of the day and got the full scoop. It's been hard up till now because everyone (except this last class) can barely speak any english (including my co-workers at the school), and I can speak no Korean. Anyways the Myongshimpogan is something altogether different from the Talmud. These students had never heard it called the "korean talmud". They said that the Korean Times must have said that because the actual Talmud is so familiar to people. These students confirmed that they all had read the actual Jewish Talmud. They said it had stories about a Queen and a "Lappi". I guess a "Lappi" is a professor. Anyways they all told me that it was just good stories. Something about how the queen hated the Lappi because he was ugly but then he had people put wine into gold vases and the gold of the containers ruined the taste of the wine. (i.e. its what on the inside that matters). They must have been referencing the exact same story that another student talked about yesterday (except he could barely speak english so he said "before I read Talmud I thought him ugly").
Anyways this class couldn't tell me the name in english of the class that they all read the Talmud in but they could explain to me what they do in the class. They said its just a class where you read literature and then you write about what you have read in the class. I asked them what other books you read in that class and do you know what the first thing they answered? THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK!!!!!!!! All the other books were Korean and they didnt know any english title for them.
This is tooo creepy.
And one more:
I did the same thing last night so I asked another teacher today at the school to try and get the bottom of this. I asked her if there was some Korean book called the Talmud or if it was Jewish. She said "Yes it is Hebrew but it is not bad like the one you read. They have Talmuds for elementary, middle, and high school... Even Christians in Korea LOVE the talmud." I'm still very confused. I mean the students have all told me that its just stories, ect. Could this teacher have been wrong about it being jewish?
So basically we have an answer. The Koreans are calling a book of collections of Talmudic stories "The Talmud". I can only guess that the Korean ambassador thinks that the Talmud is a collection of moral stories.
[Update: I wrote this post last night, but decided to wait and edit it in the morning. It seems Elders of Zion has beaten me to the conclusion using a google translate method that showed that books on the talmud in korean were story collections]
* Further Update: Please see this exchange of Emails with "ask a Korean" blog, that removes all doubt.
http://mostlykosher.blogspot.com/2011/03/debunking-korean-talmud-story.html
Debunking the Korean Talmud Story
Some days ago, Ynet ran a story of an interview with the Korean ambassador to Israel, who claimed the Talmud was required reading for every Korean student:
“We were curious how come the Jews are so successful academically and have a much higher percentage of Nobel Prize winners in all fields… what is their secret?… one of your secrets is studying Talmud,” continued ambassador Young-Sam-Ma. There might be now more (translated) Talmud volumes in South Korean homes than in Israel!
“We tried to understand why the Jews are such geniuses and we concluded that (it is because) they study Talmud,” explained South Korea’s ambassador to Israel.
This story was picked up by just about every proud Jewish website. However if anyone thought a little, the story makes no sense! even using an explained talmud (i.e Artscroll) the Talmud is hard reading for adults - never mind schoolchildren. Furthermore large parts are so dependant on some other Jewish Knoweldge, that you really couldn't understand anything.
A quick google search for "talumd" and "Korea", brought me to a catholic forum. In 2005 a poster named "Brogan" wrote the following posts:
I've taken a job in Korea. This is a decission that I now regret becuase I stupidly misred sspx's website and thought that they offered mass every sunday. Its actually only once a month.
Anyways, I just found out that all the little kids have to read the Talmud in elementary school. I couldnt believe this. There arnt even any jews in Korea. I think I'm going to look into whether or not foods here have koser lables on them. This is just rediculis. I truely doubt that even .00001% of the population here is Jewish.
He followed it up with a few other posts:
So I asked some of my students today and am now even more weirded out than before. One class told me that they all had to read it in elementary school. When I asked them what class they all acted really confused. They didnt understand what I was asking them. Then I asked the next class about it. They told me that it was not part of thier school curiculem yet every single one of them had read it as a child. When I asked them if they had read the Koran both classes burst into laughter. "Of course not thats the Muslim book".
They didnt get it when I was trying to explain to them that the Talmud was a Jewish book. They just kept saying "in Korea it is just a good book." One student told me that he loves the Talmud becuase it is the "light of Knowledge". Mind you, these kids barely speak english yet he said that exact phrase. I dont know what to make of it.
So what I'vwe learned so far is that All of them read it as children and love it yet dont know that it is Jewish. All of them read it during elementary school yet I dont think it was required in any class. But I tell you what they way they acted was more fanatical then american kids about Harry Potter. I mean they LOVED the Talmud.
Something else I found weird was after the first class told me that they had all read it I started talking to them about the Jews. All they knew about the Jews was that they were killed by Hitler. I asked them "who killed more people, Hitler or Stalin?" They all shouted "Hitler Hitler!" The strangest thing about this is that they knew that millions of Korean settelers had been killed by Stalin yet had no idea about the other 60 million or so that he killed.
How strange. The second class didnt have any answer asto why they read it. "its a really goooood book". ""before I read the talmud I used to think that he was ugly" (pointing to another student...everyone laughs). Now I know the truth. "The Talmud is the light of knowledge".
I'm going to find out still more about this. I want an answer asto whether or not its required, becuase if its not why have EVERY SINGLE ONE of them read it in elementary school?
Btw I told them that it was anti-Christian and said to kill Christians. I think this is true but umm...does it specifically say to kill Christians?
Let us leave aside the strong anti-semetic vibes (that are going to get worse as you read the original thread), Brogan continued his search into the Korean Talmud love affair:
Quote from: francis
I googled korea + talmud and found this
...
UPDATE: OK just taught my final class of the day and got the full scoop. It's been hard up till now because everyone (except this last class) can barely speak any english (including my co-workers at the school), and I can speak no Korean. Anyways the Myongshimpogan is something altogether different from the Talmud. These students had never heard it called the "korean talmud". They said that the Korean Times must have said that because the actual Talmud is so familiar to people. These students confirmed that they all had read the actual Jewish Talmud. They said it had stories about a Queen and a "Lappi". I guess a "Lappi" is a professor. Anyways they all told me that it was just good stories. Something about how the queen hated the Lappi because he was ugly but then he had people put wine into gold vases and the gold of the containers ruined the taste of the wine. (i.e. its what on the inside that matters). They must have been referencing the exact same story that another student talked about yesterday (except he could barely speak english so he said "before I read Talmud I thought him ugly").
Anyways this class couldn't tell me the name in english of the class that they all read the Talmud in but they could explain to me what they do in the class. They said its just a class where you read literature and then you write about what you have read in the class. I asked them what other books you read in that class and do you know what the first thing they answered? THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK!!!!!!!! All the other books were Korean and they didnt know any english title for them.
This is tooo creepy.
And one more:
I did the same thing last night so I asked another teacher today at the school to try and get the bottom of this. I asked her if there was some Korean book called the Talmud or if it was Jewish. She said "Yes it is Hebrew but it is not bad like the one you read. They have Talmuds for elementary, middle, and high school... Even Christians in Korea LOVE the talmud." I'm still very confused. I mean the students have all told me that its just stories, ect. Could this teacher have been wrong about it being jewish?
So basically we have an answer. The Koreans are calling a book of collections of Talmudic stories "The Talmud". I can only guess that the Korean ambassador thinks that the Talmud is a collection of moral stories.
[Update: I wrote this post last night, but decided to wait and edit it in the morning. It seems Elders of Zion has beaten me to the conclusion using a google translate method that showed that books on the talmud in korean were story collections]
* Further Update: Please see this exchange of Emails with "ask a Korean" blog, that removes all doubt.
http://mostlykosher.blogspot.com/2011/03/debunking-korean-talmud-story.html
Sunday, March 13, 2011
early human societies due to male-female bond
A new speculation in human origins - http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/11/science/11kin.html?ref=science
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